Curse

bloody streak · Apr 07, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

You know that your pet is a "weapon" and one of the ranger strengths is to be able to use two weapons.
Sooooo I suggest if rangers gets another weapon then Paragons should have a new weapon High-pitched opera voice and Dervishes should have skirt-flails and Assassins should have Needles to insert them into your neck and paralyze the victim like in all asian movies..

ok so if you have a pet what do you do just stand around there and have it attack?
and it doesnt have a problem with a sin para or derv
and if it does y is there no thread

Illuminator · Apr 07, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

You could let it attack or you could make a build that involves both of you fighting.

But I am sorry, since your proffesion is E/mo you are probably just used to 16 fire magic and 13 energy storage instead of spreading your attribute point over 3 or sometimes 4 attributes.

Program Ftw · Apr 07, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloody streak

and first of all rangers dont have shouts i think your mixing it up with paragons

Ranger's have had shouts since the game came out~

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloody streak

second how does anything bring somthing back to life
like a warrior no mgical attrbs and yet it has rez

Res Sig?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloody streak

think about what your saying

Speak for yourself..

Thanks,
Pr0gram~

bloody streak · Apr 07, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

Rangers got call of protection, call of haste, symbiotic bond etc and those are shouts

oh woops lol

bloody streak · Apr 07, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

You could let it attack or you could make a build that involves both of you fighting.

But I am sorry, since your proffesion is E/mo you are probably just used to 16 fire magic and 13 energy storage instead of spreading your attribute point over 3 or sometimes 4 attributes.

umm no this guys in pre sear trying to get the title
so theres no other choice to spread ur attrbs out if you want to fill up the skill bar
as you can see by the avatar

bloody streak · Apr 07, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Program Ftw

Ranger's have had shouts since the game came out~

Res Sig?

Speak for yourself..

Thanks,
Pr0gram~

i realize that
and of course it would b rez sig wat else wud it b
and everyone has the right to have an opinion
like i respect that illuminator doesnt want new stuff in the game cuz its already fun the way it is

Epinephrine · Apr 07, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

To be perfectly clear:

The pet is not your weapon. If that were the case no caster class should have a staff, since they have spells. Spells are their weapons is the equivalent statement.

The pet is a skill, and one that deals damage. Even maxed it only delivers in the range of 13 DPS, comparable to many skills, and well below what any weapon deals. If a caster can put down spirits and wand, or cast an AoE and wand, or put some degen out and wand a ranger sure as heck deserves the ability to trap and wand (or equivalent) as well as use a pet and wand.

The lore arguments fail, since rangers are clearly at least somewhat magical, summoning spirits would indicate that. The "you have a weapon, the bow" argument is garbage - it'd be like me saying that earth magic doesn't need a staff, you have fire staves. Putting in bows with other requirements would be imbalanced, since you could benefit from arow preparations while dealing full damage, not cool, so it has to be a non-bow.

Staves make sense. Real rangers (e.g. forest rangers) often carry walking sticks/staves, and a mystical ranger could sensibly carry a mystical staff. The damage from staves, at 11-22 per attack with 1.75 attacks per second works out to about 10 DPS, so when combined with a pet's auto attacks you end up with (at 16 Beastmastery) around 23 DPS from the auto attacks.

Well, the melee weapons are in the 20-24 DPS range. The bows are a bit lower, around 17 for the faster bows - but they can gain preparations to bring them up - and those stats for swords etc don't take up a skill slot - that's base attacks; this minimally takes one (and generally 2 skill slots, since you want to be able to recover your pet if it dies.

Would it be too much power? I doubt it. Right now a ranger of mine is playing around with Communing/Beastmastery and finding it interesting, but despite having a staff doing 11-22 damage and a pet running around I'm no killing machine. It's nice damage, sure, and I don't see it as broken to want to bring a pet+the attribute's auto attack up to the range of a weapon's. Using 2 skill slots to have the attacking power of a regular weapon hardly seems abusive.

So - if BM had a staff you'd get: for 1 or two skill slots, the attack power of a melee weapon when combining your staff and the pet. Doesn't seem absurd to me, if you can't manage 23 DPS with 2 skill slots and a wand using most casters I'd say there's a problem, and a warrior gets that DPS from a weapon alone, with no skills used.

Illuminator · Apr 07, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

only 13 DPS? yeeaaa and the pet attacks arent spammable..

Epinephrine · Apr 08, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

The pet attacks are skills. Skills deal damage. If you think the damage is good off the skills think again - paying 5 energy for 17 or 20 damage isn't really that great. Saying, "yeeaaa and the pet attacks aren't spammable" is ludicrous and misses the point. Sure, you can deal damage by using conditional skills - the condition being that your pet is alive and is able to hit the opponent. At which point you pay pretty expensive costs for the bonus damage - if Fireball did only 29 damage for 10 energy, with bonus 29 damage if the target is below 50% health you wouldn't brag about it being "spammable" - pet attacks do small amounts of damage really compared to other skills.

You have likely never played a BM, and thus have no idea what you are talking about. Every class has skills they can use to up damage. A skill that is useable every 5 seconds to add 30 damage is a 6 DPS skill, and is hardly out of line with other skills, hence the issue comes back to the pet without a weapon being purely inferior to other setups. As it happens, most BMs use a weapon from another attribute, but only because it's the only feasible way really. I wouldn't object to staves/batons for deadly arts either for example - it's possible to make a deadly arts/shadow arts assassin, but they too lack a weapon.

I won't say there aren't advantages to using a pet - you can deal damage from two sources at once, you typically have expertise reductions on costs, and in PvE it can soak some damage for you. But it's ludicrous to state that because the ranger's pet skills deal extra damage that it's all fine - every class can deal damage via skills.

Dougal Kronik · Apr 08, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

This could be a great addition for all professions that use pets, as Primary of Secondary Ranger.

Why would anyone not want to have more options to play any character. The weapons required from other Ranger attribute lines would in no way be unbalancing, or gamebreaking.

Waiting for the day Anet realizes this and gives Rangers more choices.

shirosae · Apr 08, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

if Fireball did only 29 damage for 10 energy, with bonus 29 damage if the target is below 50% health you wouldn't brag about it being "spammable" - pet attacks do small amounts of damage really compared to other skills.

Pet attacks are also mostly* not AoE, like Fireball/SF/almosteverythingelseever is. I tend to use the pet more like i play Mesmer, by dealing with a particular dangerous target while the rest of the party is doing whatever.

You win the thread, regardless.

*All but Melandru's Assault, which does +10-58 adjacent, if it hits an enchantment, for 10 energy (5, if you put 12+1 into expertise, leaving you with 3+1 for Marks).

The change to Otyugh's Cry is awesome though. I've never had so much fun with those Nightfall Ranger mobs.

I also think that weapons for BM and WS aren't really out of the question at all. Taste-wise, i think maybe throwing axes for BM (shortbow range), and staves for WS. Stave-like mod slots, HSC/HSR/att+1 etc. Beastmaster focus too?

I'm thinking that the BM setup could be a bit more like Paragon is now, in that you'd have a weapon+shield combo. The shield would help offset the ridiculous lack of space for self-defensive skills in an outright BM build, and having no throwing-axe skills would prevent the axe from being a damage issue (but it could have a zealous mod!).

My mind keeps going back to Bows being so slow compared to Spears, and i feel like adding weapons like this might bring that into focus. I digress.

What kind of damage should these weapons do though? Physical could be boosted with Orders, Elemental could trigger all number of Ele hexes. I don't think this is exploitable enough to worry about?

I also think it'd be nice if Sins and Dervishes got weapons for Deadly Arts and Wind Prayers, purely so that running those lines was more feasible. Half-range Throwing daggers sounds about right.

Illuminator · Apr 08, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

The pet attacks are skills. Skills deal damage. If you think the damage is good off the skills think again - paying 5 energy for 17 or 20 damage isn't really that great. Saying, "yeeaaa and the pet attacks aren't spammable" is ludicrous and misses the point. Sure, you can deal damage by using conditional skills - the condition being that your pet is alive and is able to hit the opponent. At which point you pay pretty expensive costs for the bonus damage - if Fireball did only 29 damage for 10 energy, with bonus 29 damage if the target is below 50% health you wouldn't brag about it being "spammable" - pet attacks do small amounts of damage really compared to other skills.

You have likely never played a BM, and thus have no idea what you are talking about. Every class has skills they can use to up damage. A skill that is useable every 5 seconds to add 30 damage is a 6 DPS skill, and is hardly out of line with other skills, hence the issue comes back to the pet without a weapon being purely inferior to other setups. As it happens, most BMs use a weapon from another attribute, but only because it's the only feasible way really. I wouldn't object to staves/batons for deadly arts either for example - it's possible to make a deadly arts/shadow arts assassin, but they too lack a weapon.

I won't say there aren't advantages to using a pet - you can deal damage from two sources at once, you typically have expertise reductions on costs, and in PvE it can soak some damage for you. But it's ludicrous to state that because the ranger's pet skills deal extra damage that it's all fine - every class can deal damage via skills.

I play BM on my ranger and everything is just fine as it is.

Epinephrine · Apr 08, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

I happen to play BM myself as well (shocking, I know), and object to being forced to carry a weapon from another profession/attribute, when pretty much anyone else gets a weapon/offhand linked to their attribute. Most BM users end up with a weapon since they shoot their damage output otherwise, so you see thumpers, packhunters, bunny reapers and so on - all using either a bow or the weapon from another class. Why should they be forced to do this?

Anyway, there is plenty of support for the idea, and ANet can figure out balance issues if they feel there are problems. I still like the idea of a hybrid shield/focus as a totem - an offhand with +8 AL and +6 energy as its base.

Hobbs · Apr 08, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

For WS, what ranger doesn't use a staff while trapping anyway? Making them able to do max damage wouldn't unbalance the game. Making BM have a melee weapon also wouldn't make them overpowered, we have thumpers don't we. As previously mention expertise is fine as it already has an inherent bonus.

My $0.02

Scown-dog · Apr 08, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

Rangers need to have javelins and pikes and spears, etc.

And how bout instead of rangers we call them amazons!

Crazyvietguy · Apr 08, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

I definently agree that rangers should have some sort of "other weapon". I like the idea of a walking staff that follows the Wilderness Survival line. While I understand that WS and BM should be used in conjunction with Marksmanship there are many WS skills that dont have much to do with arrows (traps).

Assassins should get throwing knives too

And.. Dervishes get staves?

bloody streak · Apr 08, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

To be perfectly clear:

The pet is not your weapon. If that were the case no caster class should have a staff, since they have spells. Spells are their weapons is the equivalent statement.

The pet is a skill, and one that deals damage. Even maxed it only delivers in the range of 13 DPS, comparable to many skills, and well below what any weapon deals. If a caster can put down spirits and wand, or cast an AoE and wand, or put some degen out and wand a ranger sure as heck deserves the ability to trap and wand (or equivalent) as well as use a pet and wand.

The lore arguments fail, since rangers are clearly at least somewhat magical, summoning spirits would indicate that. The "you have a weapon, the bow" argument is garbage - it'd be like me saying that earth magic doesn't need a staff, you have fire staves. Putting in bows with other requirements would be imbalanced, since you could benefit from arow preparations while dealing full damage, not cool, so it has to be a non-bow.

Staves make sense. Real rangers (e.g. forest rangers) often carry walking sticks/staves, and a mystical ranger could sensibly carry a mystical staff. The damage from staves, at 11-22 per attack with 1.75 attacks per second works out to about 10 DPS, so when combined with a pet's auto attacks you end up with (at 16 Beastmastery) around 23 DPS from the auto attacks.

Well, the melee weapons are in the 20-24 DPS range. The bows are a bit lower, around 17 for the faster bows - but they can gain preparations to bring them up - and those stats for swords etc don't take up a skill slot - that's base attacks; this minimally takes one (and generally 2 skill slots, since you want to be able to recover your pet if it dies.

Would it be too much power? I doubt it. Right now a ranger of mine is playing around with Communing/Beastmastery and finding it interesting, but despite having a staff doing 11-22 damage and a pet running around I'm no killing machine. It's nice damage, sure, and I don't see it as broken to want to bring a pet+the attribute's auto attack up to the range of a weapon's. Using 2 skill slots to have the attacking power of a regular weapon hardly seems abusive.

So - if BM had a staff you'd get: for 1 or two skill slots, the attack power of a melee weapon when combining your staff and the pet. Doesn't seem absurd to me, if you can't manage 23 DPS with 2 skill slots and a wand using most casters I'd say there's a problem, and a warrior gets that DPS from a weapon alone, with no skills used.

ugh finnally someone understands what the problem is

bloody streak · Apr 08, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

assassins = throwning knives, needles, ninja stars ,etc. (deadly arts)
rangers = walking stick for WS, maybe somthing else for BM
dervish = has a scythe that does slashing dmg right well they should have those sticks with a point on them (like a spear except you dont throw it you just stab them with it [peircing dmg])

Lydz · Apr 08, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

I don't think rangers should have other weapons/weapons linked to other attributes. If you choose marksmanship, good for you! You can use your weapon as the primary source of damage. If you choose beastmaster, the pet IS your weapon. If you get bored "standing around" apparently doing nothing then you shouldn't be playing a beastmaster in the first place. I personally don't think you stand around doing nothing on top of it...you choose when the pet uses the skills.

Yes, elementalists' primary source of damage is spells, and they do have weapons linked to their attributes, but those weapons aren't of much use to them. I certainly am not going to kill a ranger with my staff and no spells, because I don't have any skills that relate to my staff (minus the Conjure X spells).

Rangers are fine as they are...and can deal good damage

bloody streak · Apr 08, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lydz

I don't think rangers should have other weapons/weapons linked to other attributes. If you choose marksmanship, good for you! You can use your weapon as the primary source of damage. If you choose beastmaster, the pet IS your weapon. If you get bored "standing around" apparently doing nothing then you shouldn't be playing a beastmaster in the first place. I personally don't think you stand around doing nothing on top of it...you choose when the pet uses the skills.

Yes, elementalists' primary source of damage is spells, and they do have weapons linked to their attributes, but those weapons aren't of much use to them. I certainly am not going to kill a ranger with my staff and no spells, because I don't have any skills that relate to my staff (minus the Conjure X spells).

Rangers are fine as they are...and can deal good damage

the pet isnt your weapon its a spell
(a weapon i GW is somthing you weild